Candidate selection process for motor prototype
In the past, I tried to create as many different motor simulation models as I could, in order to explore and learn about the possibilities. Halbach arrays or not, ironless or ferrous cores, one or two magnetic rotors, radial flux or axial flux, etc.
Lately I’ve been making practical decisions and tweaking my simulation scripts with the intention of selecting a specific model for the next phase: building a motor prototype.
I’ve corrected a hand full of bugs in my “Radial Flux + Double Rotor + Halbach Layout + Tight Slot” motor model, which looks like the most promising model, and I’ve been running my analysis on it.
My analysis of candidates goes like this:
- Batch FEMM simulations of Torque vs. Design. This LUA-automated exploration takes one motor model and runs through all possible Neodymium magnet types in a list of 43 items compiled from 3 online shops. It tries to build motors with each of them (validating geometric feasibility), and in the positive cases it redesigns the motor with a “Stator Occupation” ranging from 50% to 85% (increasing in 1% steps and eliminating redundant designs). For each Occupation level it cycles all 6 possible “Current Phase Switching Steps” to find the maximum Torque. All these combinations are also tested with a “Pole Multiplier Factor” ranging from 1 to 5 (filtering out duds). It records all output data in magnetic flux image files, with details such as how many magnets where used, number of poles, occupation level, maximum torque, and voltage per phase in their file names.
- Parsing of results into tables and graphs. With a perl script that takes the output files in a directory, grabs their file names, and compiles a neat tab-delimited table with the maximum torque for each design. It filters out the less-worthy phase switching steps, leaving only the different magnet types, number of poles, occupation levels, and respective output torque. As a bonus, it also calculates the “score” of a design, as Nm/kg (output torque vs. total weight of magnets). This helps a lot in selecting the best candidates. From this point on, it’s just “copy-and-paste” the table into a spreadsheet and press the buttons to get a graph.
It’s probably a good time to clarify a few concepts.
- “Stator Occupation” is a name I came up with for the width of “Stator Teeth” – it is the ratio between the effective width of the Stator “tooth” and the maximum possible width for it in the design. 0% means there is no metal core, the copper winding has zero radius. 100% means the metal teeth are glued together side-to-side, so it is useless because there would be no space for the copper windings. I’ve noticed that the higher the occupation, the higher the torque, and so I’ve eliminated the “under 50%” region from the scanning. Above 85% it is difficult to fit the copper wires in. But I still reserve the chance to find some “sweet spots” somewhere in the middle, because of the discrete magnet dimensions.
- “Phase Switching Step” is a motor current “snapshot”. I’m using 3-phase current in my simulations, but to keep it simple I’ve restricted it to basic square-wave switching instead of sine-wave. It should give the same results in terms of maximum possible Torque. In this domain, there are 6 possible different states of “on/off” combinations of the 3 phases, and the script runs through them all. I’ve selected this as a quicker and less computer-intensive strategy to find the max torque, instead of rotating the Rotor itself with one phase active, trying to detect the position of highest torque as I did before. Spinning the rotor one degree at a time, for at least 90 degrees, is a waste of resources when I can spin only the current field in 6 steps.
- “Pole Multiplier” is a factor I use for increasing the effective number of magnetic poles of the model, without changing anything in its basic configuration. I just multiply the number of base magnetic poles that the model has, both for the Stator and the Rotor. So, for example, a normal LRK motor with 14 Rotor poles and 12 Stator poles becomes a “double-density” 28 Rotor / 24 Stator poles when applied a factor of 2. The extra Stator coils are wound in series with the base ones, so this maintains the current per phase and increases the total voltage (FEMM does not allow us to specify voltages, only currents). I found that, just like with “Occupation”, the rule here is “the more, the merrier”.
However, I also reserve the right of finding anomalies in this domain.
So, what does this mean? It means my dual-core machine is taking 14 hours to crunch through 30 variants of the model in order to give me a digest with the best candidates… and it still hasn’t stopped. But there’s already a refreshing set of results, such as a variant built with 3mm cubic magnets that is capable of a whopping 1000 Nm when run at 100 A !!!
I will be posting the results in the near future.
June 23, 2008 at 3:37 pm
1000Nm?? I’m going to love the smell of A-class rear-wheel tire smoke in the morning!!!
June 23, 2008 at 4:59 pm
I’m not hoping, I’M PRAYING that you build a 1000Nm motor!!!
Max speed calc’s (considering that the batt holds on)
1 motor = 289Km/h @ 278kW
2 motor = 410km/h @ 793kW
4 motor = 579km/h @ 2249kW
Just day dreaming…..
June 23, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Yeeah, dream on…
).
Even if power was not a problem, the energy would have to come from somewhere…say, how long would we need to maintain that power level until the acceleration was complete?
For example, imagining the 2 motor setup (793 kW), if we held it for 5 seconds at 410 km/h, then the battery would have to contain at least 66 kWh.
A lead-acid battery of that capacity would weigh around 1855 kg!!!
A Nickel-MH would be around 825 kg.
A Lithium-ion one would weigh around 412kg, which is barely manageable… but completely out of reach of anyone’s wall€t!!
_________________EDIT____________________________________
Ooops!… quick math was never my strongest trace. I used minutes instead of seconds in the hour!!…
Redoing it:
At 793 kW for 5 seconds, that would waste 1,1 kWh (approximately one Prius battery
Perfectly acceptable!
June 23, 2008 at 5:31 pm
The machine took 16 hours to burn through 35 variants of the “Radial Flux + Double Rotor + Halbach Layout + Tight Slot” model.
Now I’ve got some data to look at.
The results can be as wimpy as 50 Nm / kg of magnets, or as exciting as 330 Nm / kg, depending on number of poles and choice of magnet size.
June 23, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Imagining 800kg of battery
0-100km/h in 7,3s
0-200km/h in 17,7s
0-300km/h in 30,1s
0,220kWs at top speed
The power varies with the speed so that’s 12kWh from 0-410 in 77sec…
June 23, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Mr. Vasco, I’m impressed! Wonderful work! I’m eager to see the results
June 23, 2008 at 7:34 pm
800 kg of Ni-MH battery holds 64 kWh.
Minus the acceleration energy (12 kWh) would leave about 52 kWh, which would let us keep the happy speed of 410km/h for:
52 kWh x 60min / 793 kW = 3,9 minutes.
Hmm…. 4 minutes of orgasmic experience from 800 kg of battery.
There you have it, it really sucks hauling around chemical batts…
June 24, 2008 at 3:57 am
“According to Car and Driver, the Bugatti Veyron’s fuel consumption at 253 mph was 3.0 mpg (78L/100km). At full throttle, its 100 L (26 US gal/22 imp gal) fuel tank would empty in just 12 minutes 46 seconds. This is a safety measure studied by the engineers because after 15 straight minutes at 253 mph the tires would melt.”
253mph = 405km/h (slower than your A-class
)
and “only” 13min…
June 24, 2008 at 8:47 am
Ahahahah… I love the part where they dress up a physical inevitability as a “safety measure designed by the engineers”…
What did they do? Make the engine EVEN LESS efficient at higher speeds??? LOL!!! I would assume a car as complex and sofisticated as the Veyron would have tire monitoring electronics and a control system to cut down the speed in case of tire integrity danger…
Somethings you cannot escape; the faster and longer the ride, the larger the vehicle has to be to carry its own energy storage. That’s why jet airliners are only competitive in large sizes. Fast and long = big and heavy.
June 24, 2008 at 8:58 am
Anyway, the necessary cooling technology to make all this work in safety would have a prohibitive price (ignoring the battery price for a moment).
In our “hypothetical 410km/h A-class”, if the motor was 95% efficient, that would mean 5% of 793 kW = 39,6 kW would turn into heat inside the motor. If we couldn’t remove that heat at least at the same rate (40 kW), then the motors would self-destroy. Between the demagnetization of the Neodymium blocks and the burning-out of the wire insulation, we couldn’t get another single rotation out of the poor motors… complete garbage.
The “pros” use liquid-cooled electric motors, but I doubt they can remove heat at a 40kW rate!…
And since I’m aiming at building a MUCH cheaper motor than PML Flightlink, I’m not counting on liquid Nitrogen, superconductors, or Peltier sandwiches to cool my motors (which not even they use).
June 25, 2008 at 11:53 am
Well, if you need such a high level energy density, i guess you can allways go for nuclear
June 26, 2008 at 9:35 am
In a way, I already am… permanent magnets are just atomic energy stores.
June 26, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Make the motor for a 1000Nm, afterwards we’ll deal with that… or limit the power
July 3, 2008 at 1:08 am
Well, paint me red and call me a fire truck!…
I just found another model variant that pumps out a crunching 1700 Nm!!!…
I’m on vacation this week, so I’ve had a little more time to work on the project. I’ve started bulk simulations on another model (ferrous core + non-halbach), and I’ve been debugging the models and tweaking my scripts (both the computation and results analysis ones).
Namely, I intend to present my results not just indexed by maximum torque, but also in terms of torque vs. magnet weight and torque vs. electric power.
This way I’ll have a way to pick a prototype candidate that isn’t excessively expensive (I hope) and is reasonably efficient (supposedly).
July 17, 2008 at 12:45 am
Soooooo… any winners? It’s been almost 2 weeks from your last post… you should have made up your mind by now and showing us pics of the winner(s)
July 17, 2008 at 11:16 am
heheh…. yeah, you’re right, I should’ve posted by now.
The problem is that I ran into a really nasty geometry bug that stops me from trying the medium-to-large magnets… one of those trigonometric “error accumulation” things that make you pull your hair out. Disgusting.
But I do have a large set of data already, so I’ll give that a try. I’ll try to make the time for it asap…
In the meantime, I enhanced the results parser to include real information about magnet weight and cost. This way I can compare torque vs. (weight and cost and power).
Unfortunately there is no overall winner yet; I have to establish priorities in my criteria, and right now I settle for:
1 – Nm/Euro; 2 – Nm/kW; 3 – Nm/kg.
This means I want the biggest “bang for buck”, followed by the most electrically efficient, and lastly the lightest possible.
Keep listening…
August 23, 2008 at 4:06 am
I would like to know your best model for power output power density for use as a generator.
steve.sullivan@nanosource.com
August 24, 2008 at 8:26 am
Hi Steve.
In the absence of further information, I can only assume that the machine design that works best for traction also works best for generation. At least from the static analysis perspective of FEMM (which is all I have right now), that certainly seems the case.
So the answer to your question is pretty much the same as for the “best motor”: pick your own from the “best of” list.
See my post called “Simulation results, part 1″ ( http://myownhybrid.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/model-simulation-results-part-1/ ), and pick your winner. If you have different selection criteria from mine, then download the spreadsheet and play with it.
Good luck!
August 25, 2008 at 5:23 am
Hi Vasco,
I’m not sure I agree with best traction motor = best generator motor. That may be true, but I ‘m not certain that it must be true. For a generator you want to maximize energy output, but for traction you want torque. You may be able to get more energy out of a motor that produces less torque.
However, it may not be significantly different and it may be more convenient and cost effective to use one motor design. For starters, if you have identical power and generator motors, they are interchangeable and you have only one template.
I’ve been playing with wire winding apparatus. I built my own jig, out of mostly scraps. While the jig will need some fine-tuning it will be satisfactory for a prototype. I may eventually buy a winding machine. One thing that I have discovered is that it is absolutely critical to have some sort of tensioning device in order to produce a tight uniform coil with 14AWG solid magnet wire. This may not be as much an issue for you, as it is for me. Still if you are going to wind your own motor, then you will need to think about a winding apparatus and your windings will be in a tighter area than mine. I’m now going to work on a tensioning device. I’m thinking something simple like three rubber or plastic wheels squeezing on the wire with adjustable tension. Have to be careful though, I don’t want to deform the wire.
I also have two possible designs for an iron core for the axial motor. One involves rolling a thin laminate up into a disc on a small core, then drilling and milling out slots for the windings. This is to be followed by a careful unwinding of the laminate. Cleaning of the cut surface, applying a lamination and re-rolling it into a solid disc. Of course an outer ring must be installed against the unrolling of the disk.
Next, I need to calculate the optimum winding for the motor, well at least by the time I get a satisfactory test winding. I’m using a 16 magnet/12 coil design. I’m also considering using 36 coils.
August 25, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Concerning the generator, there is a characteristic much more important than torque/power, and whose the best value depends on the application: “V/rpm” (or something equivalent). What will be the rpm (or average rpm) that the generator will spin at? You want to have the most power production at that rpm, and this depends on the number of poles. Otherwise you’ll see yourself needing a gearbox, with the consequent power losses and price/complexity increase.
August 30, 2008 at 8:35 am
It is more complicated than that. The number of poles is only one factor as Vasco’s test runs illustrate. However you can control the rpm of a generator using Pulsed width Modulation (PWM) control circuits. I would use PWM over gears, even though it might be more expensive, it would eliminate power losses and reduce the loads on the systems.
August 30, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Celtic, you kinda lost me over there… PWM to control a generator’s RPM???…. How??
The RPM of a generator that is mechanically linked to an Internal Combustion Engine is controlled by that ICE, period. So Njay has a point: either the generator has to be dimensioned to the specific ICE rotation range, or some kind of mechanical reduction must be included. Obviously, it is better for efficiency and economy to design the generator for direct mechanical coupling.
Which brings up the pertinent question Steve asked: what exactly is the best generator design? Which criteria to follow for selection?
I suggested the same as for the motor (torque), because that is an indication of how much energy effectively flows through the design; a high torque motor should be a high power generator, because both employ an intense magnetic flux. And a high efficiency motor should also be a high efficiency generator… Of course, I may be dead wrong, I don’t yet have the skills to decide. But I’ve ordered a nice book on the subject.
Now, Njay suggests the “V/rpm” constant that most motors have, as a criterion. I don’t know exactly how that maps into efficiency, but I can see how it is important in the overall system design – you’d like to know the exact voltage coming out of the generator. But as you, Celtic, have said, the question is a lot more complicated than that.
In my opinion, one of the criteria in common between my higher torque motor designs and what I think would be a good generator is the number of poles. The higher the number of magnetic poles, the better – but I’d probably separate them into independent phases on the generator. An output AC voltage on 15 phases would be a lot “easier” to rectify than on 3 phases, yielding a very smooth current and therefore lower rectifier losses. But it is a compromise between current smoothness, current intensity, and phase voltage (less phases with same pole number = higher current or voltage, depending on how we wire the coils together).
So… since this is just the tip of the iceberg, I’d say there’s a lot to digest here. In a simple DIY perspective, I’d settle for the design with the highest torque-to-electric-power ratio as a good basis for both a motor and a generator, and then build both machines and experiment and tweak them independently. Nothing substitutes effective practice.
September 1, 2008 at 5:27 am
Oh, of course. I wasn’t really thinking that part through. Of course you can’t do PWM with mechanical ICE power source for the generator.
I don’t agree with NJay on this. I don’t think you’d want to use standard motor V/rpm values as a starting point. I’d say it would be better to go with standard V/rpm values from generators. However, I think many commercial generators are made to run both ways and as such are probably designed for compromise. If you’re going to compromise on the generator you might as well go with the same motor as the propulsion motor.
Wow, 15 phases? Why not just use a clamping circuit and let voltage vary up and down some. There must be an acceptable range of voltage to charge with. I’m not sure what the consequences of a varying power of charging are though. I know on the face of it my suggestion may sound nuts, but consider that windmills are used to generate electricity and they definitely have a varying power output. Even if the controllers are fully rectifying the windmill generator, they would still have a varying output. I would even suggest that looking at how a windmill rectifies generator output to the battery storage would be worth a look. My perspective is that as long as you aren’t stressing the batteries it would be acceptable to allow the voltage and current to varying up and down. I might even b e tempted to wire the generator as two phase and just bridge rectify it. This would be the simplest circuit providing the least lose of energy, and providing an easily calculated “average” charge rate. Now I’ve never tried anything as crazy as this. But s simple inexpensive experiment could be done to test the wisdom or folly of it.
The challenge, I think will be driving the generator in a way not to destroy the batteries. I think a generator producing maximum power output will produce too much power and would rapidly destroy any batteries it was designed to charge.
September 1, 2008 at 12:43 pm
And there is something else to consider: you also have to decide whether to dimension the generator for battery-charging only, or for the full-power traction motors.
In my view, I’d like to make the generator “big”, i.e., it would be powerful enough to drive the motors directly. This way, when doing highway, I avoid the battery conversion losses (gen->bat->motors), and it should not be too hard to charge the batteries in the meantime.
I’ll probably just stitch a couple of motors together into a single generator machine; it would reuse the design and simplify construction (I hope).
September 10, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Stacking motors? Excellent idea! Great minds must truly think alike. That was part of my plan originally. I planned on making a small motor to power the motorcycle, and then build a larger motor by internally stacking multiple stators and rotors to reach the power needs for a car. However, your in-wheel motor design has led me away from that concept somewhat.
The challenge here is getting the motors in precise synchronization. Whereas my challenge would have been in precise alignment of rotors and stators. Two aspects of the same problem. How to get maximum power out without dragging down power from mis-alignment issues.
I’ve also been working on adding a temperature sensor to the motor design and a forced compressed gas coolant solution. Something similar to those freeze spray cans. Spraying out a compressed gas that rapidly cools as it expands.